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Post by itsmetical on Feb 1, 2006 15:32:52 GMT -5
druids dont tank unless u have shit warriors
end of.
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Post by Ashra on Feb 1, 2006 16:00:40 GMT -5
tbh druids can tank as good as any warrior. We had meuh tank ragnaos and killed him. I have given meuh 6 sec aggro on a 5 man boss then going full out damage on it meaning i shoot for 2000+damage per spell and he didenĀ“t loose aggro.
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Post by Druids Suck on Feb 1, 2006 16:43:01 GMT -5
Why was Meuh even considered as a tank have u got no decent warriors ? I kno Meuh is a good Druid but at the end of the day why was he tankin Rag thats just ridiculous. No wonder its take u so long to do Rag
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ned
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Post by ned on Feb 1, 2006 18:33:36 GMT -5
facts... 1) its cheeper to kit a druid out than a warrior for rag 2) druids do more agro than warriors (this has been tested over and over if u care to look) 3) druids dont realy use defence.. we use agility, that gives us both Crit (agro/rage generation) and Dodge (we dont block or parry so agi>defence) 4) druids are desgined to tank.. if u dont belave me go read out class description. 5) this was our 3-4th attempt? with one of them being totaly screwed up thanks to ct-raid. 6) i dont have tanking sets handed to me (warriors do) so even with using this bit and that bit.. i can still be REALY effective.. what do you think would happen if i had a set like might/wraith? (with parry/block changed to stats i can use). 7) warriors went only designed to tank.. thay have 2 other tree's also, i wonder what thay are for.. and why a warrior has -20% agro when not in defence stance? So saying we took long to kill rag is just silly, saying druids cant tank is silly, and saying that i tank because we have no decent warriors?? ofc we have.. it just gose to show how effective i can be . All you ppl that say druids cant tank need to remember the game has moved on... in the last patch blizzard has allmost doubled my dps, and gave me a talent to get 15% more agro, since practicly all my agro comes from my damage (unlike a warriors) guess what that meen's? omg my agro ability doubled or more thanks the the druid patch. Also i got a 20%hp boost... yes i have more hp than warriors.. i also have more armour... and armour is > defence anyday of the week... its funny when u have 12k armour in pvp and rogues walk away from you cuz thay do so little damage Anyway not using druids on certan encounters just makes the game harder for you... so feal free to do that as you will, while us smart players will be doing things in a more fun and effective way.
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Post by itsmetical on Feb 1, 2006 20:18:32 GMT -5
if druids can tank as a warrior then why do the best guilds in the world all use warriors.
druids heal way better than they can tank.
druids dont block or parry, thus, they have shit mitigation. they get crit a lot more because they have very low +defence.
damage mitigation caps out at 75%, all decent tanks should have it at 75%. it doesnt matter if a druid has 12k armor, because a warrior with 9.5k armor will cap the mitigation. and then the warrior also has 420 defence, which means he also just doesnt get crit... ever
druids have 1 taunt on a 10 second cooldown, warriors have a taunt of the same effectiveness on an 8 second cooldown (as well as 2 emergency taunts on CD). druids are there for innervate and rebirth, and 4k burst heals (and well maybe cat form dps, coz that is actually something worth considering). druids do not have last stand, druids do not have lifegiving gem, druids do not have a very nice tier 2 tanking suit, druids do not have bloodrage, mocking blow, challenging shout, shield wall, revenge, heroic strike or sunder armor... they cannot compete with warriors tanking in any way.
druids do no gain anywhere near as much agro as warriors, a warrior in defencive stance with defiance can hold agro 10x harder than a druid. and he makes the job easier for your priests. wait till u start bwl, try tanking Vaelastrasz with a druid, and then when you move on, the drakes with shadowflame, and chromaggus/nef. now we find these mobs piss easy with MTs that have 10k armor, 8k hp. a druid would get fucked so fast its unreal.
ive spoken to meuh a few times, and i have come to the conclusion that MAYHEM HAS SHIT WARRIORS. <- im not trying to insult your guild in any way or have anything against any of your members, but seriously... you let a druid tank.
im not putting you down for your tanking ability meuh, but druids cannot ever step in for warriors in a tanking situation, the damage mitigation is not even close.
i can tank ragnaros with a 2 hander and 45% mitigation, same for onyxia.
seriously... if druids were almighty tanks then every top guild would use one to tank... and NONE do.
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Post by rand0mkant0r on Feb 1, 2006 21:55:10 GMT -5
ticals post was spot on.
gg
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ned
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Post by ned on Feb 1, 2006 22:15:38 GMT -5
druids dont block or parry, thus, they have shit mitigation. they get crit a lot more because they have very low +defence. damage mitigation caps out at 75%, all decent tanks should have it at 75%. it doesnt matter if a druid has 12k armor, because a warrior with 9.5k armor will cap the mitigation. and then the warrior also has 420 defence, which means he also just doesnt get crit... ever. Ok... a few facts here 1) defence stance dosnt stack with armour mitigation.. Lets take a warrior with some epic and some blues (like my lvl of equipment) and look at some numbers... Warrior has 7500 armour and 57.69% damage reduction, he would take 38 damage from 100 (100 - 58= 42 - 10% ) Druid with 11500 armour and 67.65% damage reduction, he would take 32 damage from 100 (100-68). So as you can see 57% + 10% defence stance dosnt come close to 67% of pure armour damage reduction.. the only place the +10% work's at full allways is in magic reduction. You talk about Warriors in wraith.. if i was to have gear anywere close to that.. id probibly be walking around with 16k armour, 16500k armour = 75.00% damage reduction = 25 damage from 100. 16.5k armour is the max you can use V lvl 60mob's but most boss's are lvl 63 so you could actualy use more. druids have 1 taunt on a 10 second cooldown, warriors have a taunt of the same effectiveness on an 8 second cooldown (as well as 2 emergency taunts on CD) Actualy druids have 2, normal taunt on 10s cooldown and AoE taunt for 15rage on a 10min cooldown. druids do not have last stand, druids do not have lifegiving gem, druids do not have a very nice tier 2 tanking suit, druids do not have bloodrage, mocking blow, challenging shout, shield wall, revenge, heroic strike or sunder armor Lets look at what a druid has will we.... Warrior Heroic strike, 12 rage? (with talents?) on next hit ability. damage + 145 x 1.45 = agro, apartly with the avrage warrior damage this works out at 212(threat) +145 x 1.45 = 517 avrage threat per heroic strike. Sunder, (duno the cost) instant. 261 x 1.45 hate per sunder Revenge, you must parry? (duno the cost) instant. damage + 315 hate x 1.45 = agro (i duno the damage here so cant give you how much hate it will make, but i bet its still not close to a maul crit) and others... Druid Maul, 10 rage (with talents) on next hit ability. damage x 1.75 x 1.45 = agro, let's take my "low" hits into acount... 300 x 1.75 x 1.45 = 761 avrage threat per maul. My mauls can sometimes crit for over 1k (100x 1.75 x 1.45 = 2537 threat) with an avrage maul damage of around 500? and unlike warriors tanking druids actualy have agi on there armour so i crit often. Swipe, 15rage (with talents) instant. damage x 1.75 x 1.45 = agro (hits 3 targets) Works out to have an avrage non crit threat of 177, normaly when i spam swipe (with 3 targets, omen of clarey and +5rage per crit i can actualy gain agro) i crit 1-2 mob's usualy wich = 355 hate per crit (warriors have nothing like this). Fairy fire, free (talent) instant 6s cooldown 30 yard range -500armour debuf that causes 170 threat yer a free ranged armour debuf that gives just under half the hate of sunder (thanks blizzard ). Frenzy regeneration, instant, 10 rage per second for 10seconds. 2min cooldown heals me for 200hp (can crit) every second for 10s Ferial charge. 5rage. instant 15s cooldown (theres a min/max range). Charge your target, stoping them moving for 4seconds, if ur target is casting a spell you also silence them for 4seconds. druids do no gain anywhere near as much agro as warriors, a warrior in defencive stance with defiance can hold agro 10x harder than a druid. and he makes the job easier for your priests. Actualy.. i get hit more than warriors = more rage, i get +5 rage any crit and rage for auto hitting. Both warrior and druid have +45% more hate added to all there attacks (if thay are both speced ofc or it would be +30%). A druids hp will also move at a more stedy rate because i dont avoid as much, were as a warriors hp can be stable for a few seconds then WHAM hugh chunk has just flew off.. ive been told on many occasions that in some encounters im ALOT easyer to heal. i can tank ragnaros with a 2 hander and 45% mitigation, same for onyxia. So all that talk about how good a warrior is, and then u say something silly like this?? Why bother even tanking then? i like to look at my damage after a fight, i like to find out how i can make myself better in that roll i like to give my healers an easyer time and i like to let my DPS know its safe to have fun. Let me see you tank the spider boss in zulg solo... ohh wait a moment.. u can move out of its web, best get another warrior to bring your mob back then , let me see you tank the fish boss in zulg... o wait ull spend most of ur time away from the mob while im stuck to it like glue (ferial charge 4tw) You have your nice tools and stuff that gives you the edge on some encounters, i have mine.. tell blizzard to make me a set like wraith then compare me to a teir2 warrior but untill then its WAY unfair since 1/2 of my gear is actualy blue... warriors with my type of gear couldnt be anywere as effective as me at tanking so imho druids do a dam fine job for what thay can get. seriously... if druids were almighty tanks then every top guild would use one to tank... and NONE do. actualy i hear alot of ppl using druids for some boss's because its better.. yes even in bwl btw if u wanna check that my numbers arnt full of crap you are welcome to look... forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-warrior&T=735732&P=1forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=708760&p=1&tmp=1#post708760
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tical not logged in
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Post by tical not logged in on Feb 1, 2006 22:24:06 GMT -5
wouldnt matter if u had 45 million armor, the mitigation cap is 75%
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ned
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Post by ned on Feb 1, 2006 22:45:42 GMT -5
btw tical.. i didnt meen any dissrespect to you in my post, but i do alot of reserch in tanking, how it all works and stuff and i just thought i would try and look at things from a "number" point of view.. Im actualy glad you think druids are good at dps now (i can ambush mages for 2.4k damage) and was quite surprised to see you say that Im not saying that a druid should "replace" a warrior, im just mearly trying to point out how effective thay are even without l33t tanking item's (that warriors get given to them), and how in some encounters using a druid could actulay make an encounter easyer. And i bet that blizzard will continue to put in encounters were one type of tank is better than the other (wich is a good think imho).
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Post by Kantor on Feb 1, 2006 22:55:20 GMT -5
you will be nerfed in due time.
sorry to say it but they nerf everything and feral is so fucking imba atm its going to get shafted. hard.
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Post by itsmetical on Feb 1, 2006 23:02:48 GMT -5
im posting back on my PC now.
these are numbers and figures posted by players, and nothing is confirmed by GMs/community staff, they are all just numbers and figures, i know through experience that it is FACT warriors tank 99% of situations better than a druid.
about the boss tanking... spider boss in ZG, u use 2 tanks, its very simple. and the fish boss... warriors have this little move on a 30s cooldown called intercept. both are tanked perfectly by a warrior.
a warlock punching a mob doesnt not compare to 7 rogues, 6 mages, 4 warlocks and 7 other warriors hitting a target, a warlock punching a target is steady dps, he hits for like 4 dmg a hit. a whole raid hitting a target is hitting for thousands of totally unsteady dps. its all world of theorycraft
when you guys get to the 2nd boss of bwl, see how a druid works.
blizzard wont make druids a set like wrath, because druids are stand ins, they are not tanks, if you cant find a tank then you could use a druid. druid armor has +healing and +int, not +defence.
i dont know about all this threat in numbers shit, i just know for a fact druids dont compare to warriors in end-game situations.
i could say things like... oh let me see you tank firemaw... oops youd die in 1 shadowflame/melee crit coz u have no defence. or ebronroc, or flamegor, or chromaggus, or nef, or anything that has the ability to crit hard.
ragnaros and the sons do pretty much 100% fire damage, it doesnt matter how much +def that youve got, as long as you have over 280 fire resist. as for other mc mobs, mc is a walkover, our mt can use a 2 handed axe and top the damage list, still being easy to heal... because he doesnt get crit.
what your saying about armor sets etc, comparing you to a tier 2 warrior... druids just do not even compare. who cares about the armor, the sets are available, go and get them. druids could be viable in some of the mc mobs, but until uve seen the damage some of the bwl bosses do, you wont understand.
it just REALLY fucking frustrates me, because its FACT that druids do not tank anywhere near as good as a warrior. druids are secondary.
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as kantor said, feral will get nerfed, ive seen feral druids hit harder than rogues which just isnt right.
u better get ur warriors some training, coz if u wanna make any real progress in bwl u'll have to spec resto
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ned
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Post by ned on Feb 2, 2006 0:04:33 GMT -5
realy? then why is it that a druid has tanked every boss in BWL apart from nefarion? and them threat numbers can be EASLY checked yourself... go get 2 ppl and a mob, hit something and get the other person to do "white damage" on it.. and see how much damage he has to do to pull agro.. not hard realy, do this a few times and you get ur avrage threat and can work out just how it work's... like these ppl have done. About the warlock damage thing, ofc the lock only hits for 4 damage, it give you quite accurate information to just how much "white damage" is needed to pull agro, you can then use this information to get figuers and work out how stuff work's.... it dosnt mater if 500 ppl are hittin my mob, as long as i can do more threat per second than any single one can do dps then the mob stays on me. And if i can keep agro from a double trinket mage after only haveing 15s with the mob myself (thanks for that ashra ) then im pretty shure my agro generation is pretty dam solid. as for ur intersept.. let me see, its 30seconds, its a stance change (u lost most of ur rage).. its not anywere close to how effetive ferial charge is and the fish boss can kick u away more than 2x in 30seconds. as for the spider boss... it takes TWO warriors to tank it, its takes ONE druid... you do the maths here but im pretty shure if it takes you and kantor to tank something that i can do alone.. then it meens im better for that mob, yet you cant even adminit that and for how hard some of the bwl boss's hit.. i know one of them can hit warriors for 6k, but thats warrior's, if theres something you should have known out of this is that.. if it hits a warrior for 6k it hits a druid for quite a bit less... there was an alliance druid that tanked broodlord, and he never once lost more than 50% of his hp... im shure after one of his 6k hits ud be allmost dead. as for druid armour being all +heal... i dont think so.. Dark Heart Pants Binds when picked up Legs Leather 296 Armor (around 1.3k in bear) +20 Stamina Durability 90 / 90 Requires Level 60 Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 2%. Equip: +48 Attack Power. Field Marshal's Dragonhide Breastplate Binds when picked up Unique Chest Leather 197 Armor +19 Strength +14 Agility +18 Stamina +13 Intellect Classes: Druid Requires Field Marshal/Warlord Durability 120 / 120 Requires Level 60 Equip: +36 Attack Power. Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%. (ohh my a melee item with no + healing on it.. and it even says "druid") Guise of the Devourer Binds when picked up Head Leather 250 Armor +17 Strength +19 Agility +36 Stamina Durability 70 / 70 Requires Level 60 Equip: Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 1%. (ohh whats this?? omg its an epic druid tanking head) You have allways seen druids as healer's, you dont even want to think that one of you "healers" could be good enuf to take you tank spot if thay wanted.. ive noticed this with alot of warriors tbh its like NOOO no one can do my job its mine all mine.. when the sad fact is, druids can and will tank and with = quality gear will do the job just as well. Can you compare a BWL rogue to a 1/2 mc rogue? no... Can you compare a BWL warrior to a 1/2 mc warrior? no.. So dont even try and compare a kitted out warrior to me, i have a MUCH harder time than you to get my equipment.. im not handed it like some noob (here you go warriors.. just run MC and get rox equipment) as a druid i can have a set of bracer's from MC, but ill have to goto EVERY SINGLE other raid instance to get the rest of my gear. Its about time you remberd that druids ARNT healer's, we are actualy 3 class's in one (tank/dps/healing) and with the right spec and gear we CAN match the primary class in any one of these roll's.
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ActualFantasy
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Spam ------->
Mage in disguise...!
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Post by ActualFantasy on Feb 2, 2006 1:45:17 GMT -5
Tical lives in his own world. He does not understand and refuses to accept there are other possibilities for every fight.
He does not understand the concept of hybrid chars, which can excel in one part or another. He has a very narrow mind considering char development in WoW.
Priest heals, warrior tanks, rogue does damage.
We use a paladin to tank adds of several bosses in MC. Np at all there. Hes doing very good. We use druids at domo's adds, and of all the times ive been there, a druid tank is easier to keep alive then a warrior. And on top of that, one of our healing specced Paladins is usually in between or right after the priests in healing done.
Its all how you play your char, and tical plays them as if they can do one thing only...Which is wrong.
AF
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Post by druid warrior on Feb 2, 2006 2:15:52 GMT -5
A warrior willl never tank better than a druid UNLESS his GEAR outclasses the druids by 5x . Sorry warriors, but wake up from your dreamworld and face the FACTS lol. Face the fact that blizzard have made druids pwn warriors in tanking...yes they probably will nerf druids back to where they once came from...but untill then
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ActualFantasy
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Mage in disguise...!
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Post by ActualFantasy on Feb 2, 2006 3:47:56 GMT -5
A warrior willl never tank better than a druid UNLESS his GEAR outclasses the druids by 5x . Sorry warriors, but wake up from your dreamworld and face the FACTS lol. Face the fact that blizzard have made druids pwn warriors in tanking...yes they probably will nerf druids back to where they once came from...but untill then A druid tank, and a pally healer can be a great team. Especially in pve, where the pallies heals draw far far less aggro then that of a priest.
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